You know Shrps, I never heard of it either and a search on DF only showed a couple, but I've had over 30 guys respond an Jeep forums and almost as many on Dak forums who had it happen. Not to mention there is an '03 Limited sitting right next to mine at the shop that dropped a valve on I95. Piston looks like a mushroom. That one is looking for an engine swap at the moment.

I think the tell-tale that it's a common issue is if you go shopping for re-manned heads ALL the ads say "4.7 valve seat issue fixed" in them...




Nope, although bent valve stems is more common in any over-head cam engine, I'm talking about the actual valve seat failing. It's funny but DF has very few posts on it, but a LOT of the smaller forums have quite a few guys who have had it.

Master Tech (our moderator who is a Chrysler tech) reports seeing it regularly, almost as common as the Hemi valve spring failures. If you Google it you will find a lot on it.

Interestingly, now that I've researched it, I find it's almost always cylinder #2 and I'm only the second (out of about 60 who responded to my posts who have had the issue) that has the 4.7 HO, which was thought to be "immune" from it. Most who report have over 120k miles on their engines although two guys (one a Dak, the other a Grand Cherokee) had it happen prior to 100k, but OVER the 70k warranty mileage). My engine has been meticulously maintained, never come close to "red-lining", only mildly off-roaded, never gotten any hotter than 215* and the valve seat failed at 102k miles. Chrysler has supposedly fixed this issue with the '08+ 4.7 engines which were re-designed.

It's not widespread, as I know many, many guys with over 200k on their 4.7s who have never had it happen, but I have found it's common enough to bear mentioning when someone is considering a used, higher mileage 4.7.





The 5.2/5.9 engines are mated to the 46re transmission which is about a 30 year old design now. In the Ram, it got the trucks the reputation of having the "best V8 engines on the planet mated to the worst transmissions" reputation they had from the late '80s until the early 2000s.
It's basically a hydraulic driven, 4 speed transmission and it's longevity has long been in question, although a lot of guys do see fairly decent life when changing fluids often.

The 4.7 has the 45/545rfe line of fully electronic transmissions which is probably the only good thing that came out of Daimler (Mercedes) ownership. It's proven to be a VERY reliable and stout tranny. Incidentally, the first generation 45rfe (4 speed) can be made into the 545rfe (5 speed) with a simple flash of the PCM with a Star Scan tool...

 

Im pretty happy with my D. Its got the 4.7 and the 5-speed tranny. I average between 15-17 mpg...all stock except for the exhaust. I sometimes get as much as 20 mpg on the highway and it hasnt given me any engine problems. Ive had emissions problems, bad o2 sensors, tps sensor, and maintenance has been on point since ive had it.

One things for sure tho...i wouldnt mind having a 5.9...or maybe something with a 5.7.

 

Hammer, are you saying that I can change the tranny in my 2000 4.7 from a 4 speed to a 5 speed with just a computer flash? Do you have any idea how or where I could do that and what is the cost? Do they have it at a dealership? And are you sure it would work for the MY2000 4.7?

 

Well let me correct you, the 5.9L was mated with the 46RE, the 5.2L was mated with the 44RE, and the 3.9L was mated with the 42RE. They have a lot of similarities, but are built different, just like mine in my V10 Ram is a 47RE with kicks the crap out of all of them, but is still them somewhat. Yes it is a mostly hydraulic trans with limited electoronics, however they have a bad wrap because of the ATF+3 that was instilled in them to begin with, and going back quite a few years.

See the ATF+3 was never built to withstand 60K which was stated as needed in the owners manual as serviceable at that time. The issue was that the fluid "Sheared" during that time even after normal usage. With that said, if a person used a better fuild like ATF+4 or better then they would have been protected. See in 2000 they used ATF+4 which was better suited for the transmission, thus the reason that the transmissions started holding up.

With that said, it wasn't Chrysler, it was the lubrication and ownership. To make a bold statement like:
This is clearly an uneducated assumption. It wasn't the transmissions, it was the lubrication.

As for the valve seats;

Of course your going to have some issues when you drop hardened steel into an aluminum head. They clearly are 2 different types of metal, they expand at different rates, of course they are going to pop, would you expect differently?

I have seen more issues with bearing caps popping out because of the design of the cam. If you rebuild one of these motors you will clearly see that the cam has to be turned in sequence and mounting bolts torqued. The reason of this is because the valve springs.

Now, if a spring becomes weak or the cap becomes worn the cap pops off and gets stuck in the spring. Then the piston comes up and kisses the valve and smashes it into the seat, which in turn dislodges the seat, bends the valve or not, and causes the issue in the first place.

Most of this is pushed under the rug when they do the rebuild because with the new heads the valves is straight (ground), or replaced, now have a total length of OEM which uneducated installers fail to have the caps checked for tolerances and reinstall and have no issue because the caps is now fitted with the valve in the given tolerances (until a little ware on the valve and it happens again).

What I'm trying to define here is most underlying cases, not always or definite.

As for bringing Master Tech into this, that is unfair. Leonard knows a thing or two, in fact he could take MOST people to school, but even he has learned a few things from this old mechanic.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but you might want to re-read the "internet" articles and remember that this is the internet.

 

Hi Guys

I started a social group just for the dodge techs, We write what we are finding in the dealership. Yes the jeep and dodge products are having problems with valve seats in the 3.7L, 4.7L and the 5.7 hemi motors. We are also finding the 3.6L pentastar motor is also having problems with the right cylinder head, numbers 2,4 and 6. I have invited just some members into the group just to keep an eye on the members so they and myself are not breaking any rules. Those members also see what we go through as well. The 4.7 motor in case you did know, has a hollow camshaft. Thats means the cam lobe can rotate and cause a misfire, Timing chain guides are also a problem on the 4.7L, if you start to get to 100k. buy a chain kit. We also had this same problem with 2.6 motor back in the 1980's. The 5.9 engine also had its problems too. after 1995, dodge mil the heads to a point where you would have a misfire after 70k. You would be replacing the spark plugs, cap, rotor, and wires. Replacing the intake gaskets. I have post many times about this problem. I will not share what was writen back to me. The fix was replacing the cylinder heads, because you would get a hair line crack between the intake and exhaust valves. One more tip on the 4.7 or any engine that has a power steering pressure switch, And this has been proven by two dodge forum members, mean green and hydra. A power steering pressure switch leaking will move fluid thru the wire harness and cause the o2 sensors to fail and can also leak into the connect of the PCM. Before i get off my soap box, Here is a TSB on the transmission flash in question. As always and rustin knows me as well as hammer, If you have a qustion on engines or transmissions drop me a pm.

NUMBER: 18-025-01
GROUP: Vehicle
Performance
DATE: October 15, 2001
THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21–09–00, DATED
SEPTEMBER 15, 2000, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES.
**ASTERISKS** HAVE BEEN USED TO HIGHLIGHT CHANGES. THIS BULLETIN
ADDS A MODEL YEAR AND REQUIRES A REPROGRAMMING OF THE 1999 AND
2000 GRAND CHEROKEE POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE (PCM).
SUBJECT:
45RFE **and 545RFE Shift** Quality Enhancements for the** 2-3, 4-5, and 5-4** Shifts
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves selectively erasing and reprogramming the **Transmission Control
Module (TCM) with new software: ’99-’01 WJ (PN 05019701AC Ver 9.3 ), ’00 AN/DN
(PN 05018454AB Ver 9.1), or ’01 AN/DN (PN 56028285AI Ver 8.4), and requires
reprogramming of the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) for the 1999 and 2000 Grand
Cherokees only (with callibration 99Cal20 (1999) or 00Cal17 (2000).**
NOTE: THE 2001 GRAND CHEROKEE DOES NOT REQUIRE REPROGRAMMING OF
THE PCM AS IT IS ALREADY AT THE CORRECT CALIBRATION LEVEL.
NOTE: WHENEVER A PCM OR TCM IS REPLACED OR REPROGRAMMED,
THE SOFTWARE OF THE PCM MUST BE VERIFIED AS HAVING
THE LATEST REVISION LEVEL.
MODELS:
2000 -
**2001**
(AN) Dakota
2000 -
**2001**
(DN) Durango
1999 -
**2001**
(WJ) Grand Cherokee
NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 4.7L
ENGINE AND A 45RFE **OR 545RFE** TRANSMISSION.
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Some vehicles **may exhibit one or more of the following performance conditions**:
1. A harsh 2-3 upshift causing a powertrain clunk or shudder when accelerating.
2. **A harsh 4-5 upshift (’01 Grand Cherokee only).**
3. **A harsh 5-4 downshift (’01 Grand Cherokee only).**
18-025-01 -2-
NOTE: THIS REVISION TO THE TCM SOFTWARE ADDRESSES THE ABOVE SHIFT
QUALITY CONDITIONS FOR ALL VEHICLES AND, ADDS A FINAL GEAR RATIO
TO THE **1999 AND 2000 MY** GRAND CHEROKEE TRANSMISSION ONLY. (2001
MY GRAND CHEROKEE ALREADY HAS THIS UPGRADE.)
NOTE: TO MAINTAIN EMISSIONS COMPLIANCE, GRAND CHEROKEE VEHICLES
THAT ARE EQUIPED WITH A FEDERAL EMISSION SYSTEM (SALES CODE
NAA) MUST HAVE THEIR PCM REPROGRAMMED. IF THE SOFTWARE LEVEL
IS AT OR HIGHER THAN THOSE IN THE OVERVIEW ABOVE, OR IF THE
GRAND CHEROKEE HAS A CALIFORNIA EMISSIONS SYSTEM (SALES
CODE NAE), REPROGRAMMING IS NOT NECESSARY.
DIAGNOSIS PROCEDURES:
Using the Mopar Diagnostic System (MDS2) and or the Diagnostic Scan Tool
(DRBIIIŽ) with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedures Manual, verify that all engine
and transmission systems are functioning as designed. If Diagnostic Trouble Codes
(DTC’s) are present, record them on the repair order and repair as necessary
before performing this repair. If no DTC’s are present, and the above symptom
has been experienced, perform the Repair Procedure.
NOTE: **IF OTHER PERFORMANCE ISSUES REMAIN AFTER THE REPAIR
PROCEDURE HAS BEEN PERFORMED THEY DO NOT RELATE TO THIS
BULLETIN. REFER TO THE PROPER SERVICE OR DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURES
MANUAL(S) FOR FURTHER ASSISTANCE.**
PARTS REQUIRED:
Qty. Part No. Description
1 04669020 Label, Authorized Software Update
1 04275086 Label, Authorized Modification
EQUIPMENT REQUIRED:
CH6000 Scan Tool (DRB IIIŽ)
CH7035 General Purpose Interface Bus Cable (GPIB)
CH7000/7001 J1962 Cable
MDS2 (Mopar Diagnostic System)
NOTE: THE MDS2 AND DRB IIIŽ ARE REQUIRED TO PERFORM THIS REPAIR. WHEN
USING THE MDS2 AND THE DRB IIIŽ, THE SYSTEM MUST BE OPERATING AT CIS
CD **2093 OR HIGHER AND DRBIIIŽ LEVEL 52.3 OR HIGHER. (CD 2093 AND DRBIIIŽ
VERSION 52.3 WILL BE IN THE DEALERSHIPS ON OCTOBER 15, 2001.)**
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
1. Log onto the MDS2 (Mopar Diagnostic System).
2. Connect the MDS2 and DRB IIIŽ to the vehicle and switch the ignition key to “ON”.
-3- 18-025-01
NOTE: AUTO CONNECTION WILL OCCUR ONCE THE DRB IIIŽ, MDS2, AND VEHICLE
ESTABLISH COMMUNICATION. THE “CANNOT READ VIN FROM DRB IIIŽ” MESSAGE
(ON THE MDS2) WILL BE REPLACED BY THE VEHICLE VIN. PRESS THE “OK”
BUTTON ON THE MDS2 TO REQUEST A MDS2 SESSION FOR THE VEHICLE VIN
INDICATED. PRESS THE “OK”BUTTON WHEN ASKED TO BEGIN SESSION.
3. Push the FLASH tab on the MDS2.
4. Select READ PART NUMBERS FROM VEHICLE and click SHOW
UPDATES on the MDS2.
NOTE: A MESSAGE MAY APPEAR (AFTER STEP 3 OR 4) THAT INDICATES NO
UPDATES ARE AVAILABLE. IF THIS OCCURS, MAKE SURE YOUR DIAGNOSTIC
EQUIPMENT IS OPERATING AT THE LATEST SOFTWARE LEVEL AS LISTED
EARLIER IN THIS BULLETIN. IF THE LATEST SOFTWARE IS INSTALLED,
AND NO UPDATES ARE AVAILABLE ANOTHER VEHICLE CONDITION EXISTS
THAT WILL REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
5. Select the new software part number with the light pen and click
UPDATE CONTROLLER SOFTWARE.
6. The MDS2 and DRB IIIŽ will prompt for any operator action needed during
the remainder of the reprogramming process.
NOTE: DUE TO THE PCM REPROGRAMMING PROCEDURE, A DTC MAY
BE SET IN OTHER MODULES (EATX, BCM, MIC, SKIM, ETC.) WITHIN THE
VEHICLE, IF SO EQUIPPED. SOME DTC’S MAY CAUSE THE MIL TO ILLUMINATE.
ALL DTC’S RELATE TO A LOSS OF COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE MODULE
THAT IS BEING REPROGRAMMED. CHECK ALL MODULES, RECORD THE
FAULTS, AND ERASE THESE FAULTS PRIOR TO RETURNING THE VEHICLE
TO THE CUSTOMER. ERASE ANY FAULTS IN THE PCM ONLY AFTER ALL
OTHER MODULES HAVE HAD THEIR FAULTS ERASED.
NOTE: THE FOLLOWING STEPS ARE REQUIRED BY LAW.
7. Type the necessary information on the “Authorized Software Update Label” p/n 04669020
(Fig. 1). Attach the label to the PCM and cover the label with the clear plastic overlay.
18-025-01 -4-
Fig. 1 AUTHORIZED SOFTWARE UPDATE LABEL
8. Type the necessary information on the “Authorized Modification Label” p/n
04275086 and attach the label near the VECI label (Fig. 2).
Fig. 2 AUTHORIZED MODIFICATION LABEL
1 - POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE P/N (INSERT P/N) USED
2 - CHANGE AUTHORITY: TSB XX-XX-XX
3 - DEALER CODE: XXXXX
4 - DATE: XX-XX-XX
POLICY:
Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.
TIME ALLOWANCE:
Labor Operation No:
08-19-49-93 Reprogram TCM 0.5 Hrs.
08-19-44-94 Reprogram PCM on 1999 or 2000
Grand Cherokee Only
0.5 Hrs.
FAILURE CODE:
FM Flash Module

 

Hydrashocker: Why do you have to turn EVERYTHING into an argument?

My "bringing Master Tech into this" as you say, was simply pointing out a source for information I have obtained, who as usual has provided invaluable AND ACCURATE information.

As for my "Best V8 engines on the planet mated to the worst transmissions", that was a VERY common quote that was used constantly in reviews of Dodge trucks for well over a decade by a plethora of sources. If you NEVER saw or read that quote, then you grew up in a box! I would love to take credit for the phrase because in truck circles it was a popular as "Where's the Beef" was back in the day, LOL...

Yes, the RAM and DAK sections are full of posts from guys who have had this done, I've even known some dealers who did it as a "free update" for people. By contrast, we had a former site moderator here who's local dealer REFUSED to do it for him even though he was willing to pay for the job. He ended up coming over here to my local dealer who charged him 1/2 hour labor for the update on his '02 Ram 4.7...

 

I didn't see it as a argument, I see it as the members haven't seen the problems that the product is having. Because it hasn't happen to them. The reason for the valve seats dropping and don't know if anyone has told you, is the seats are heat treated into the aluminum heads. Over time and if the engine runs too hot, it could cause the seats to drop and hold the valve open and then the pistion take over and starts causing damage. I'm not saying this is whats going to happen when your engine overheats, i just giving you the information on what is causing the seats to drop. This also the same problem the 5.7 hemi motors are having too.

 

Which has me totally baffled as to why mine failed. I've never seen my temp gauge over 215*. Just unlucky I guess...

 

personally i question the accuracy of the digital gauges however i dont have space to add mechanical gauges for everything

 

I would go with the unlucky. The engine doesn't have to overheat. You get a motor with over a 100k and things just happens.